Tag: design education

Colloquium 11.3: Virtual Summer

Call for design research abstracts. Deadline: Fri, April 25, 2025.

Submission Deadline: Friday, April 25, 2025.

Event date: Friday, June 20, 2025
Format: Virtual/Online
Location: ZOOM

We invite designers—practitioners, creators, and educators—to submit abstracts of design research, creative investigations, and productions. This is a virtual online event format. Abstracts can be submitted online now for peer review.

Abstract submissions are double-blind peer-reviewed. Accepted abstracts will be published online. Please review the articles, Quick Start Guide for Writing Abstracts and Writing an Academic Research Abstract: For Communication Design Scholars before submitting.

There is a $10 conference fee required upon acceptance of the research abstract for non-members. The conference fee is waived for active annual members. Find out more about our annual memberships.

Researchers will videotape their 6-minute presentations which will published online in advance of the colloquium. The video recording is due by Thursday, June 5, 2025. We encourage all attendees to watch the videos in advance of the moderated discussion.

Presentation format is Pecha Kucha. For more details, see the colloquia details and description.

The colloquium is a moderated panel discussion of the research involving the researchers, thought leaders, and Design Incubation members.

Host: Cat Normoyle, Design Incubation Director of Peer Reviews.

Mashq Conference 2022 on Arabic Type and Typography 

Seasoned pioneers in Arabic typography to emerging younger practitioners and academicians.

Yara Khoury Nammour
Assistant Professor
American University of Beirut, Lebanon

Khajag Apelian
Lecturer
American University of Beirut, Lebanon

Mashq 2022 conference was held on October 20–21, 2022 at the American University of Beirut [AUB]. It was the first event dedicated entirely to Arabic type and typography. Organized by AUB’s Arabic Type Unit, a research body committed to advancing Arabic type and typography, the conference marked a groundbreaking milestone in the Arab region.

AUB has long been at the forefront of design education. More than thirty years ago, it pioneered the first graphic design program in the Arab world and was the first to integrate the graphic use of Arabic script into its core curriculum. Building on this legacy, the Arabic Type Unit was established in 2018. Naturally, Mashq 2022 served as an extension of these efforts that provides a platform to explore the historical evolution, current practices, and future directions of Arabic typography in the region.

The organizers made sure that the event spotlighted regional expertise that has long been overlooked, with more than 80% of the speakers being of Arab origin while talks by non-Arab speakers were curated to focus exclusively on Arabic type and typography. The team also made sure to design and develop a dedicated conference bilingual website [www.mashqconference.org], with a strong emphasis on Arabic, further reflected the conference’s dedication to its cultural and linguistic roots. All conference talks were made freely available on the Arabic Type Unit’s dedicated YouTube channel [www.youtube.com/@ATU_org], to extend the event’s reach to a global audience. A summarized video is here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcNUw5HOgH4&t=17s

Attendees and Participating Institutions

Mashq 2022 succeeded in attracting over 400 attendees, including students (62%), professionals (38%), and professors (13%). Participants mostly came from Lebanese universities such as the Lebanese American University, Notre Dame University, Middle East University, Lebanese University, and Académie Libanaise des Beaux-Arts. International attendees included those from Egypt, Turkey, Iraq, and the United Arab Emirates.

Speakers and Sessions

The conference featured presentations from 15 distinguished speakers, with a diverse spectrum, from seasoned pioneers in Arabic typography to emerging younger practitioners and academicians. This mix fostered a rich exchange of perspectives, blending deep-rooted expertise with fresh, innovative approaches to Arabic type design and visual communication.

Among the speakers, Kameel Hawa’s presentation, “The Spring of Arabic Type,” showcased his innovative efforts to rejuvenate Arabic script through type design and calligraphy, reflecting on its potential for both tradition and modernity. Lara Assouad discussed the graphic visual expression of language and its alphabet, offering insights into how typographic design can shape visual communication. Hatem Imam analyzed the relationship between cultural production and graphic arts, proposing methods to bridge the gap between these two domains. While Onür Yazıcıgil explored the history of Ottoman naskh and its spread beyond the borders of Istanbul in order to contextualize the influence of these typefaces on Turkish and Arabic printing and publishing in Beirut and Cairo. Naïma Ben Ayed also presented collaborative new research that aims to expand Arabic type design pedagogy, emphasizing the importance of ‘self-organized knowledge’ under the School of Commons.

Exhibitions and Workshops

The conference hosted two exhibitions: 100 Best Arabic Posters which celebrated contemporary Arabic poster design of 2021-2022, while the Granshan Type Design Competition Winners exhibition highlighted award-winning Arabic typefaces from 2019 and 2021/2022.

Complementing the exhibitions, workshops were also planned to provide participants with hands-on learning opportunities. Azza Alameddine guided attendees through the complexities of harmonizing Arabic and Latin scripts in logo design during her workshop, “Arabic/Latin Logo Matchmaking.” Georg Seifert introduced participants to the creation of Arabic fonts using Glyphs software in his workshop, “Introduction to Glyphs.”

Diversity and Inclusion

The organizers made it a priority to amplify diverse voices within the Arabic typography community. They took special care to give a platform to the older generation of Arabic typographers and designers, many of whom had not previously been afforded the opportunity to share their work on such a prominent stage. This effort ensured their invaluable contributions and experiences were recognized, preserving their legacy while inspiring a new generation of practitioners.

Additionally, the speaker lineup reflected a wide range of experiences and expertise, spanning seasoned pioneers to emerging practitioners and academicians. This intentional curation fostered an inclusive dialogue that bridged generations and enriched the discussions with diverse perspectives.

Sponsors and Support

Sponsors contributed a total of $12,000 from different entities in the profession and the educational sector. Their contributions were essential to the success of the event. Key sponsors included:

  • Gold Sponsor: Commercial Type
  • Silver Sponsors: Glyphs and TypeTogether
  • Brass Sponsors: Rosetta Type, ISType, Koein, and Morcos Key

Impact and Reflection

Mashq 2022 challenged the dominance of Eurocentric design paradigms by fostering a space where Arabic typography and regional practices took center stage. It offered a compelling alternative to the often homogenized global design landscape. The conference highlighted the possibilities of moving beyond standardized, Westernized approaches in design education and practice, encouraging attendees to rethink the role of cultural identity as an intrinsic element in the creative process rather than a background influence.
Through it all, Mashq demonstrated how design can transcend corporate functionality to serve as a medium for personal narratives, cultural preservation, and regional storytelling. It explored the potential for a design philosophy rooted in local visual culture.

Mashq2022-241211Download

This project was the 2024 Design Incubation Educators Awards runner up recipient in the category of Service.

Biography

Yara Khoury Nammour — Assistant Professor of Graphic Design, Arabic Type Unit, AUB

Yara is a graphic and type designer, author and educator. She is an assistant professor of graphic design at the American University of Beirut and an independent designer since 2017 after a long-standing career of 20 years as design director at Al Mohtaraf design house. Her work is published in several international books and has authored a book titled ‘Nasri Khattar: A Modernist Typotect’ from Khatt Books. She heads the Arabic Type Research Unit and co-organizes the biennial Mashq conference on Arabic typography at AUB.

Khajag Apelian — Part-time Lecturer of Graphic Design, AUB

Khajag is a lettering artist, type and graphic designer. Khajag has developed typefaces in various scripts, including Arabic, Armenian, and Latin. He designed Arek, a typeface that was awarded the Grand Prize at Granshan 2010 Type Design Competition, and was among the winners of Letter.2, the 2nd international type design competition organized by the Association
Typographique Internationale. He currently operates under the name “debakir” Armenian for “printed type”. He …. and co-organizes the biennial Mashq conference on Arabic typography at AUB.

Working with Design Clients: Tools and Advice for Successful Partnerships

A practical guide to working on client and community work in the design studio.

Meaghan Dee
Associate Professor
Virginia Tech

Jessica Meharry
Visiting Assistant Professor
Institute of Design at Illinois Tech

Working with Design Clients: Tools and Advice for Successful Partnerships is a book for design students and educators seeking to integrate real-world client projects into their curriculum. Born from extensive research, interviews, and the authors’ years of experience running a successful student-run design studio, this book offers practical advice, tools, and frameworks for navigating the complexities of client-based learning.

The studio is a core strand of design education, and working with real clients is one of the most valuable ways for students to develop their professional design practice skills.

The book is a practical guide to working on client and community work in the design studio – how to collaborate with and connect to communities, find and retain clients, and manage real-world design problems.

The book is structured in four parts:

  1. Why: Establishes the pedagogical value of client projects, emphasizing their role in fostering industry connections, experiential learning, and student empowerment.
  2. What: Focuses on the practicalities of community engagement, client selection, and structuring studio experiences to achieve learning goals.
  3. Who: Examines the roles and responsibilities of students, faculty, and clients, highlighting the importance of effective communication, collaboration, and articulating value.
  4. How: Offers guidance on launching and managing a student-run design studio, including financial management, operational logistics, and planning for long-term sustainability.

This is the book Jessica and Meaghan wish existed when they were thinking about starting a design studio and took over a design studio (respectively). This book addresses a critical gap in design pedagogy literature by providing a comprehensive resource for educators seeking to bridge the gap between academia and professional practice.

Key contributions include:

  • Practical Guidance: Offers concrete advice and actionable strategies for implementing client-based projects, from finding clients to managing budgets to assessing student learning.
  • Diverse Perspectives: Incorporates insights from numerous interviews with design educators, students, and industry professionals, representing a range of institutional contexts and pedagogical approaches.
  • Emphasis on Ethics and Community Engagement: Provides a framework for ethical client interactions, emphasizing the importance of designing with communities rather than for them.
  • Focus on Student Empowerment: Highlights the role of client projects in fostering student agency, leadership, and professional development. (Chapter 3 of this book also features Najla Mouchrek’s Model for Empowerment in the Transition to Adulthood)
  • Support for Student-Run Studios: Offers dedicated chapters on launching, managing, and sustaining student-led design studios.

This book aims for design educators to:

  • Integrate client-based projects into their courses.
  • Develop effective strategies for finding and managing clients.
  • Create meaningful learning experiences that foster student growth and professional preparedness.
  • Build and sustain successful student-run design studios.
  • Promote ethical and socially responsible design practice.

The book also hopes to empower design students to:

  • Confidently work with “real world” clients and community partners.
  • Be more prepared to graduate and enter industry.
  • Understand dynamics of client interactions.

By providing students and educators with the necessary tools and knowledge, this book will contribute to a more engaged, impactful, and relevant design education that better prepares students for the challenges and opportunities of the professional world.

Methodology

The book used a mixed-methods approach, combining:

  • Literature Review: Synthesized existing research on design pedagogy and experiential learning.
  • Surveys: Gathered quantitative data on client-based practices in design programs across the country and around the world.
  • Interviews: Collected qualitative insights from design educators, students, and industry professionals.
  • Case Studies: Via interview, examined successful examples of client projects and student-run studios.
  • Authors’ Expertise: Leveraged the authors’ years of experience in design education and running a student-led studio.

Overall, this book represents a culmination of the authors’ passion for design education and their commitment to preparing students for successful and meaningful careers. It is a resource they wish they had when they first embarked on their journey. They hope it will serve as a valuable guide for fellow educators and their students and contribute to a more vibrant and impactful design education landscape.

Chapter 1Download

This project was the 2024 Design Incubation Educators Awards runner-up recipient in the category of Scholarship: Publication.

Biography

Meaghan A. Dee is an Associate Professor and Chair of Graphic Design at Virginia Tech, where she also serves as a Senior Fellow at the Institute of Creativity, Arts, and Technology. Her work centers on connecting communities through storytelling and immersive design experiences and by fostering collaboration between students, faculty, and industry professionals. Meaghan sees design as a tool for engagement, communication, and innovation.
In addition to her role at Virginia Tech, Meaghan is a docent emeritus for the Letterform Archive in San Francisco and served as co-chair for the AIGA Design Educators Community (AIGA DEC) Executive Board—a group dedicated to supporting and connecting design educators across the world. She earned her Bachelor’s degree in Graphic Design from the University of Illinois at Champaign-Urbana and a Master of Fine Arts in Visual Communication Design from Virginia Commonwealth University.

Jessica Meharry is a designer, researcher, and educator who develops justice-oriented design methodologies for professional practice. She teaches courses in the politics of design, critical contexts of design, and the philosophical context of design research. Jessica received a PhD from the Institute of Design (ID), an MFA from Savannah College of Art and Design, and a bachelor of science from Northwestern University. Jessica’s cross-disciplinary research interests focused on designing for equitable economies, strategizing processes that frame equity as an innovation driver, and developing inclusive design management pedagogy. Jessica’s current research projects include the development and testing of an anti-oppressive design framework focused on information and communication technologies. She is also a collaborator on a research project led by Hillary Carey, PhD candidate at Carnegie Mellon University, in which they’re using design methods to explore anti-racist futures in organizational contexts.

2024 Design Incubation Communication Design Educators Awards

2024 Design Incubation Educators Awards competition in 4 categories: Creative Work, Published Research, Teaching, Service

Congratulations to the recipients of the 2024 Communication Design Educators Awards!

Scholarship: Publications

Winner

Gender, Transgression, and Ritual Torah Preparation
Leslie Atzmon
Professor
Eastern Michigan University

Runner-up

Working with Design Clients: Tools and Advice for Successful Partnerships
Meaghan Dee
Associate Professor
Virginia Tech

Jessica Meharry
Visiting Assistant Professor
Institute of Design at Illinois Tech

Scholarship: Creative Work

Winner

Riveted in the Word 
Warren Lehrer 
School of Visual Arts (SVA);
Purchase College 
SUNY (Professor Emeritus) 

Teaching

Winner

Variable 
Kelsey Elder
Assistant Professor
Carnegie Mellon University 

Runner-up

Chicago Designs: Teaching Community-Based Histories 
Christopher Dingwall
Assistant Professor
Washington University in St. Louis

Dr. Bess Williamson
Professor
North Carolina State University in Raleigh

Dr. J. Dakota Brown
Visiting Associate Professor
University of Illinois, Chicago

Amira Hegazy
Adjunct Assistant Professor
University of Illinois Chicago

Service

Winner

The People’s Graphic Design Archive
Louise Sandhaus
Professor
California Institute of the Arts

Mary Banas
Lecturer
Tufts University

Brockett Horne
Lecturer
Boston University

Alan Caballero Lazare
Assistant Professor
George Mason University

Briar Levit
Associate Professor
Portland State University

Alberto Rigau
Studio Interlínea

Morgan Searcy
Art Director

Bobby Joe Smith III
Special Faculty
California Institute of the Arts

Runner-up

Mitigating Youth Violence: The Futuring Project: Audacious Narratives & Enduring Voices 
Neeta Verma
Independent Scholar
Associate Professor (retired)
University of Notre Dame

Runner-up

Mashq Conference 2022 on Arabic Type and Typography 
Yara Khoury Nammour
Assistant Professor
American University of Beirut, Lebanon

Khajag Apelian
Lecturer
American University of Beirut, Lebanon

2024 JURY

Steven McCarthy (Chair)
University of Minnesota

Douglas Kearney
University of Minnesota

Doug Barrett
University of Alabama at Birmingham

Basma Hamdy
Virginia Commonweath University—Qatar

Kali Nikitas
University of Southern California in Los Angeles

Workshop on Writing an Academic Abstract

An Affiliated Society Meeting at the CAA 113th Annual Conference

Affiliated Society Meeting at the CAA 113th Annual Conference, New York City

Friday, February 14, 2025
1:00 PM – 2:00 PM
New York Hilton Midtown – 2nd Floor – Murray Hill West

This is a hybrid event. Attendance is free to anyone in person. (No conference fee is required.) To attend virtually, complete the form below to receive details for the virtual login.

Join Design Incubation for a workshop on Writing an Academic Abstract. We will provide examples, recommendations, best practices, and ideas on crafting a written synopsis of your communication design research for submission to conferences, journals, invited lectures, grant and book proposals.

Please complete the form and let us know how we can facilitate your academic abstract writing efforts. This event is suited for junior faculty new to research and publication. It is also an opportunity for senior faculty to discover community and feedback on their scholarly endeavors.

Form: https://designincubation.com/abstract-writing-workshop/

Enhancing Design Education: Students Skill Development through Technology in Blended Learning Environments

Strong positive correlations between students’ comfort with technology, its perceived importance for skill development, and overall satisfaction with the learning environment.

Danilo Bojić
Associate Professor
Winona State University

This proposal examines the effects of technology integration on skill development and student satisfaction in undergraduate design education, guided by the Technology Acceptance Model (TAM) and the Diffusion of Innovation Theory (DoIT). It aims to clarify how digital tools enhance design competencies and learning experiences.

Two primary research questions were explored:

1) How does comfort with technology correlate with its perceived importance among design students in blended environments?

2) How does technology integration affect students’ satisfaction with their learning environment? The study utilized a quantitative, exploratory, correlational design, surveying 288 undergraduate design students from public liberal arts colleges in [name anonymized for peer-review] using a structured Qualtrics questionnaire.

The analysis found strong positive correlations between students’ comfort with technology, its perceived importance for skill development, and overall satisfaction with the learning environment. These results emphasize the essential role of technology in design education and highlight the need for strategies that enhance technological proficiency and effectively integrate digital tools.

The findings are significant for educators, curriculum developers, and educational policymakers, stressing the importance of innovative pedagogical approaches that leverage technology to meet the evolving needs of the design profession. This research contributes valuable insights into the integration of technology in design education, enhancing both theoretical discussions and practical teaching approaches.

This design research is presented at Design Incubation Colloquium 11.2: Annual CAA Conference 2025 (Hybrid) on Friday, February 14, 2025.

Design History Data: A Snapshot of US-based Undergraduate Programs

Graduating students may not understand the historical conditions that created their discipline.

Aggie Toppins
Associate Professor
Washington University in St. Louis

Design history is not a firmly established field in the United States. Scholars Grace Lees-Maffei and Rebecca Houze show how in the UK, by contrast, educational reforms in the 1970s mandated that colleges offer subject-specific contextual studies, creating demand for design historians in studio programs and initiating the field’s growth in Europe. Although many early graphic design historians were American educators, most colleges here offer little design history content. Consequently, graduating students may not understand the historical conditions that created their discipline.

NASAD Data Summaries show that enrollment in communication design programs is eclipsing studio art, yet most design students are required to study art history. The author will argue that as design professions contend with new forms of automated labor, skills in historical thinking—described by Andrews and Burke through the “five Cs” of change over time, context, causality, contingency, and complexity—are as useful as analyzing aesthetic objects. Design conferences and journals have recently spotlighted design history pedagogy, questioning its entanglements with connoisseurship and canonicity, and with capitalism and imperialism. How are these trends making an impact on design history education today?

In this presentation, I share insights from data I collected on 345 US-based undergraduate programs in communication design. The data affirms that the survey course is often the only touchpoint graphic design students have with design history. I aggregated information about these courses from academic bulletins, course catalogs, and program websites, and verified facts with faculty. The data contributes evidence for current practices and patterns of change in course titles and descriptions (which indicate common approaches and themes), textbook choices, and faculty training. The data will serve as a useful resource for educators looking to situate their curriculum in current discourse, and for administrators in positions to advocate for faculty hires and curricular revision.

This design research is presented at Design Incubation Colloquium 11.2: Annual CAA Conference 2025 (Hybrid) on Friday, February 14, 2025.

Editorial Infographics: Bridging the Gap Between Complexity and Clarity in Design Education

Students now more effectively understand and display text, images and data.

Teresa Trevino
Professor
University of the Incarnate Word

Francesco Franchi, graphic journalist, described infographics as “impossibility in its purest form,” using the Penrose triangle to illustrate the complex coexistence of content, design, and data. This reflects the challenges that information designers face when aiming to inform and engage overstimulated audiences.

These challenges resonated in our Information Design studio course. While students begin the semester with enthusiasm, a shift occurs when transitioning from research to design. Confusion often sets in as they struggle to create effective visualization. Observing this recurring pattern over the years, I recently implemented a subtle yet significant change that led to improved outcomes.

An original 5-week Infographic assignment became the current 8-week “Editorial Infographics” project. Students begin researching and gathering information for a newsletter. The revised assignment required students to design all pages including an infographic as the central spread. Despite the complexity added by merging Editorial and Information design as a unit, students now more effectively understand and display text, images and data.

References such as Franchi’s work for La Repubblica and Intelligent Lifestyle Magazine, along with Manuel Lima’s The Book of Trees: Visualizing Branches of Knowledge, and Nigel Holmes’ Map of Infographia and Infographic Design were instrumental.

The extended project introduced a learning curve, with some resistance to the longer assignments. However, most students reported increased confidence and have incorporated these skills into other projects, with some receiving recognition at design competitions and publications.

I will continue refining this project to enhance students’ information design skills and better prepare them for future challenges.

This design research is presented at Design Incubation Colloquium 11.2: Annual CAA Conference 2025 (Hybrid) on Friday, February 14, 2025.

New Director of Peer Reviews, Chair and Director at Large

Welcoming Cat Normoyle, incoming Director of Peer Reviews, and Camila Afanador Llach as Chair, Director-at-Large

This 2024 academic year has been busy and productive at Design Incubation. We have had many activities this fall, including the Design Educators Awards, currently accepting nominations and entries until December 31, 2024. In October, we had our first fully in-person colloquium since the onset of the pandemic and our largest one to date at Boston University with four sessions and more than 20 research presentations. This year, we celebrate our 10th year with new members and ongoing development. We continue to host the series, Design Your Research Agenda (DYRA), the latest one in November. We will be publishing this episode online shortly. 

Starting this September 2024, we welcomed Cat Normoyle, Associate Professor at East Carolina University as the incoming Director of Peer Review. In spring 2025 she will be taking over this role from Camila Afanador-Llach, Associate Professor at Florida Atlantic University, who has held the position since fall 2021. 

Normoyle is a designer, writer, and educator whose research and creative activities focus on community engagement, interactive and immersive experiences, and design pedagogy. She has a strong record of contributions to design scholarship and community engagement, evidenced by publications, presentations, and grants. Notably her writing appears in articles and book chapters published by AIGA Dialectic, Design Research Society, AIGA Design Educators Community, Routledge, and others. She is a recent grant recipient of the Engagement Scholarship Consortium for her work on the project, Our Story: The LGBTQ Stories of Eastern North Carolina, which is preparing for a fall 2025 exhibition of work. She is currently working on a book project, “Community-based Practices in Action.” We are excited to welcome her as the new Director of Peer Reviews at DI. 

Afanador-Llach has made tremendous contributions to the peer review process at DI over the last 3 years. She has further developed the peer review process, ensuring the double-blind process is objective, anonymous, rigorous, and fair and that it offers the benefits of the peer review to our members by offering feedback to all who have participated in our colloquium submission process. 

Afanador-Llach will be staying on as a Chair and Director-at-Large as she segues into other DI initiatives. We would like to thank her for her three years of service as Director of Peer Review and we are excited to be working with her in new capacities.

Afanador-Llach was promoted to tenured Associate Professor at Florida Atlantic University, and is currently researching and writing about the history of graphic design in her home country Colombia. She recently completed a three-year NEH-funded project cataloging and translating metadata, developing an online resource. With her experience with metadata and from her role as DI Director of Peer Review, we hope to further the development of keyword analysis and implementation at DI.

A New Framework and Database for Exploring Works of Experience Design

A project to organize and catalog resources to facilitate specific reference searches and discover experience design information.

Nicholas Rock
Associate Professor
Boston University

In both teaching experience design and working in a client-based practice, I have found sourcing clear case studies, examples, and references incredibly challenging and time-consuming. Recognizing the need for an accessible resource for experience design work, I have initiated a project to organize and catalog resources to facilitate specific reference searches and discover new information. The development of an introductory experience design course and my practice in design strategy provided the basis for a foundational framework. Initially designed to help teach design students, it was later adapted for my design work to enhance customer experience strategies. The framework categorizes experiences by scale, emotional response, and form to ensure a broader and more holistic understanding of experience design, benefiting designers, educators, and students.

Groups of students taking an Experience Design course utilized the framework to populate a database with more than 200 initial case studies. These case studies are a learning resource for subsequent classes, demonstrating the framework’s practical application and refinement. I additionally leveraged the Undergraduate Research Opportunities Program at Boston University to employ two undergraduate graphic design students in the project’s continued development, refinement, and evolution.

The result is a public database and guide for experience design—a resource that enables unexpected connections and discoveries across all forms of experience design. It helps to identify, archive, and contextualize a wide range of examples, making them accessible and valuable to future students and designers.

The work was intentionally published as a web-based resource, eventually welcoming contributions from a global community. This ensures its growth, adaptability, and continued insights on a broad scale. It has been designed to inspire curiosity and broaden perspectives of experience design and serves as a unique and ever-evolving collaborative resource for the design and design education communities.

This design research is presented at Design Incubation Colloquium 11.1: Boston University on Friday, October 25, 2024.